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Messages - andkon

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Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / Re: 0009: Reader Email: Gays, Greros
« on: April 29, 2013, 08:52:15 PM »
You seem to be in the middle of the controversy over who we are and where we want to be. The most important thing is that you know what you want. The way you get there is up to you. Good luck


Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / 0009: Reader Email: Gays, Greros
« on: April 26, 2013, 08:00:56 PM »

I've been listening to your audio book. So I think what you're doing is brave and inspirational in our current cultural setting. Is your personal story in the book? If not, what have been your experiences with men and what drove you to compile this info together for s book? Are greros only attracted to other masculine types? I've had 8 different "straight" men experiment with me, all differing levels of activity ranging from kissing to intercourse. I'm gay and consider myself in the middle if masculinity and effeminacy, it seems from your material greros like other masculine men. So I'm wondering if these men are exploring with me because I am the only option presenting itself as another male or if they are genuinely attracted to me (which has seemed the case for most). I myself only like masculine men and are not interested in most gay men. I wish I could have my pick of the "straight" men out there. So maybe there is hope but it'll take more movers and shakers like you to change the sexual paradigm and let them know it's ok to explore and express themselves freely.

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / Re: 0005: Speedos
« on: April 26, 2013, 07:58:59 PM »
Agreed, and welcome Bob.

Alright, the headline is a bit misleading. However, Men can't read women's emotions, study confirms:

It's a cliché that men just don't understand women. Now, new research suggests men really do struggle to read women's emotions — at least from their eyes. The research, published Wednesday (April 10) in the journal  PLOS ONE, showed that men had twice as much trouble deciphering women's emotions from images of their eyes compared with those of men.

From the study's abstract:

To determine possible differences in the neural correlates underlying emotion recognition from female, as compared to male eyes, a modified version of the Reading the Mind in the Eyes Test in combination with functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) was applied to a sample of 22 participants. We found that men actually had twice as many problems in recognizing emotions from female as compared to male eyes, and that these problems were particularly associated with a lack of activation in limbic regions of the brain (including the hippocampus and the rostral anterior cingulate cortex).

Simply put, men are better able to recognize the emotional states of other men, not women. The ability to know your mate's feelings would make for better intimate relationships.

The study is rather interesting because the claim usually made isn't just that men are bad reading at women's feelings but that men are somehow deficient overall, as if they're just emotionally dumber. But that's not true: men are bad at reading women's feelings, not feelings in general. This doesn't come as a surprise to any guy who's been to a middle school dance. The girls and boys stand on the other side of the gym, while Andkon wonders why he's only allowed to be attracted to people with whom he has nothing in common with (outside of the base sexual attraction).

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / 0007: MAD TV - My Gay Dad
« on: April 06, 2013, 01:23:46 PM »

MAD TV was hilarious, a lot more edgy than Saturday Night Live. I do wonder though what it was/will be like to live in a world where people don't get the joke because it's taken for granted than men can like other men.

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / 0006: Grero the Audiobook
« on: March 23, 2013, 10:08:58 PM »
My purpose is to get grero out to as many people as possible. As such, the book is free and so is the audiobook:

The book is about 50,000 words; the audiobook is about 4½ hours long. I recorded it on a $30 Sansa Clip+ in the closet (the least amount of echo) but the quality is hopefully sufficient.

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / 0005: Speedos
« on: February 19, 2013, 10:52:04 PM »

While I grew up in Europe, males wore speedo-style briefs at the beach and pool. When I moved to the United States, my mother sent me to the day camp's pool day with a speedo. I was confronted with the culture shock that almost trousers were almost required swimwear. Everyone was shocked. I felt more confused than ashamed since I swam better than everyone else. And while I was biased in favor of speedos, an objective look at swimsuits tells us that:

  • speedos increase speed (because there's less drag)
  • speedos reduce buoyancy (no bubbles under the taint zone)

So why was the reaction so hostile? Why was everyone juvenile towards a preference? Who cares? I certainly wasn't making fun of anyone. Why can't we just get along?  "Who gives a shit?" rhetorically asked eight-year-old Andkon.

That's called culture, especially a mono-culture that does not tolerate differences. The implications for grero are obvious: even with the massive evidence, culture has made it impermissible for anyone to wear speedos.

Speedos aren't just an analogy but a direct attack on masculinity. It's not just a metaphor about the power of culture. The hatred against speedos is actually explicitly anti-masculine. Given the functionality of speedos, why do people jeer at them? Why the juvenile snickering and hooting? If they are functionally better, people should embrace them, not hate them. The purpose of speedo hatred is to cover up masculinity, quite literally. Whereas burqas in the Islamic world cover up desired feminine aspects (curves, pretty hair, etc), speedos cover up the most visible sign of masculinity. So swim shorts are male burqas for the crotch, anti-masculine abominations. In our sexphobic culture, tits must be covered up and so must cocks. We must be ashamed of ourselves. We must pretend we don't have penises! And it's this shame that jeers down a functionally better swimsuit that would reveal our natural masculinity. It's like showing a car to the Amish. They have no use for innovation because they value slavery and subjugation to old ideas. No wonder grero (or alternatives) have not made much head way in the past.

My mother rarely gave me good advice, but she told me the hullabaloo over my speedo would die down with a day or two. She was right. After a few days no one cared anymore. But if we're afraid of wearing speedos or back down and submit to the majority's baboonery*, no progress can be made.

*Yes, it's a real word:


I wanted to share my thoughts on "Mostly Straight, Most of the Time." The article is mostly superb, but I have a minor quibble with the emphasis on "mostly straight." Dillon mentions that he doesn't know if there's a name for what he is. Because there's no name, why would there be many others like him, openly? As such, how do we know that he's mostly straight because he mostly like girls or because there is an absence of available guys? Mostly straight by nature or mostly straight by culture? I talked about this "numbers problems" in Chapter 8:

Without the word [grero], how does one even overcome the seemingly insurmountable numbers problem? Straight relationships rely on the unseen numbers to work. Basically all the women a man sees are potential mates. Sure, some are ugly, some are taken, some do not like you in return, but the remaining pool of mutually interested candidates is high enough. These days, few men can be assumed to be masculine and like other men. Whereas few women are offended if you show interest, many men can be violent if propositioned.

The authors also mention four subtypes of "mostly straights":

  • Progressive: Some one guys says that "I might have been gay if I’d been raised differently," and "Aren’t we all born bisexual and culture pushes us one way or another?" It's shocking that something like this would come from a progressive. After all the politically-correct ideas over the years that gays are born that way and are 2-10% of the population, we have someone who has no qualms about expressing heresy.
  • The second and third types think guys are hot, some may even want a bit of sex. They like sex without strings, without meaning, says the article. As with the phrase "mostly straight," how do we know this disposition is nature and not environment? With homophobic shame, why would most men be into the more-than-sex aspect of a taboo relationship? A quick fuck is hidden: no public humiliation of holding hands or society at large knowing that you like other men.
  • The fourth type is the one that admits that his feelings are more than sexual, they're romantic. This is ideally what grero should strive for.

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / 0003: It Is High Time for Sexual Netherlands
« on: February 13, 2013, 11:19:55 PM »
Remember the book Gay, Straight, and the Reason Why by Simon LeVay? The gay chapter (Chapter 3) borrows heavily from that work. Another citation in Grero, John Lauritsen, wrote a review of LeVay's book:

Simon LeVay is obsessed with his own faulty hypothesis: that "sexual orientation" is based on inherited physical traits. He believes that gay men and lesbians are physically closer to their opposite sexes than are straight people -- in other words, they fit the stereotype: gay men are more feminine than straight men, and lesbians are more masculine than straight women. In LeVay's words: "Homosexuality is part of a package of gender-atypical traits."

Lauritsen is opposed to any science of sexual orientation because its conclusions ignore the historical evidence that most men like other men. He says correctly elsewhere, "The time has come for us to say boldly that the vast majority of human males are erotically attracted to other males, whether they admit it or not; homosexuality is nothing less than a phylogenetic characteristic of the male of our species." However, the science about gays is correct, so maybe there's a need for a revised compromise, see the first comment below Lauritsen's Amazon review:

Or maybe "homosexuality" is just many different things that share a common (but vague) word? Maybe labeling based only on genitalia (to the exclusion of other dimensions like gender) is wrong. Gay men certainly are effeminate. You don't need study after study either, just a working pair of eyes and ears. So maybe gay isn't the only way to be a homosexual.

There's a reason why that comment is so astute and brilliant: I wrote in 2011, while doing research for grero. Notice that "17 of 19 people think this post adds to the discussion." Mere plebeians perhaps, but the majority of book review readers have no problems with the politically incorrect idea that gays are effeminate and that there's more to this homo stuff than gays. It appears there could be considerable support for the grero position.

Another positive development comes to us from a 2010 article on the Good Men Project, "Mostly Straight, Most of the Time." Highlights:

By his own admission, Dillon says he resides in the “Sexual Netherlands” (his words), a place that exists between heterosexuality and bisexuality. In previous generations, such individuals might have been described as “straight but not narrow,” “bending a little,” and “heteroflexible.”

Dillon is part of a growing trend of young men who are secure in their heterosexuality and yet remain aware of their potential to experience far more—sexual attractions, sexual interactions, crushes, and, occasionally romantic relationships with other guys. Dillon lives these contradictions—seemingly hetero guys who now reject that label, sexual description, and identity.

Rising numbers:

National surveys in the U.S. and Canada show that 3 to 4 percent of male teenagers, when given the choice to select a term that best describes their sexual feelings, desires, and behaviors, opt not for heterosexual, bisexual, or gay, but for “mostly” or “predominantly” heterosexual.

This article by Ritch C. Savin-Williams and Kenneth M. Cohen is highly recommended:

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / 0002: Plan B and Culture-Induced Ambivalence
« on: February 12, 2013, 11:55:02 PM »
Plan B is available for download:
Be sure to get to legit subtitles (other versions are just awful): (look for and click: Plan B (2009).srt (46642bytes))

Plan B is a classic love story. Boy (Bruno) gets dumped by girl. Boy takes revenge on girl by jokingly seducing girl's new boy (Pablo) away from her. Taking a page for Gore Vidal's The City and the Pillar, boys accidentally fall in love with each other and destroy heteronormativity.

Plan B has practical tips on turning guys:

  • Stalk ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend at the gym
  • Mention your shared loved of a TV show and that your TV does not work
  • Get invited to his house
  • Get drunk at a party and pretend that he's your boyfriend, kiss
  • Get drunk at another party and kiss again
  • Trick him into kissing you when neither of you are drunk
  • Sex

Contrast with the Grero Method:

  • Tell men to read Grero
  • Sex

Both are missing steps for sure. But seriously, notable dialogue:

Quote from: Pablo @ 44
No... I consider you a friend, we can't do it. You're going to look back at this different kiss, and you're going to think I'm a fag. And then I'll lose you as a friend.

The usual theme: friends cannot love each other. This ambivalence is similar to the campfire scene from My Own Private Idaho:

Quote from: My Own Private Idaho
Mike: I don't know, whatever... What do I mean to you?

Scott: What do you mean to me? Mike, you're my best friend.

Mike: I know man. I know I'm your friend. We're good friends. And it's good to be, you know, good friends. That's a good thing.

Scott: So?

Mike: So, I just... that's okay. We're gonna be friends.

Scott: I only have sex with a guy for money.

Mike: Yeah.

Scott: And two guys can't love each other.

Mike: Yeah. Well, I don't know, I mean, for me, I could love someone even if I wasn't paid for it. I love you and you don't pay me.

Even though Pablo wants sex with Bruno, he gets shy:

Quote from: Pablo @ 1:19:00
I love you too ... but I can't. This makes no sense. I don't like guys. I may try it once ... but it will not change. You know? I'm sorry ... I mean it, forgive me. But ... I thought about everything, but I know I don't. I know that ... We're not 12 anymore. The situation got out of hand. I wanted to be modern. But no. I'm old-fashioned. I'm ... I have a girlfriend. And so ... Anyway ... I don't know. Everything is OK. We move on ... We can still be friends.

Ten minutes later, Bruno talks to his friend Victor:

Victor: Still, Bruno, there's something I don't understand. You suddenly like men?

Bruno: I don't know, Victor. I can't explain what's happening to me. It just is. I hope this never happens to you.  My head hurts, I think about it all the time.

I can explain: grero. Most men like other men and every once in a while even in such a homophobic culture that fact shines through.

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / 0001: Grero's Zapruder Film
« on: February 07, 2013, 09:28:17 PM »


Porn is often said to be disingenuous and fake. If you analyze it meticulously though, you can sometimes see the invisible hand of culture blindly guiding us to grero.

On YouTube, a gay porn studio put out a short PG-rated clip of the cheesy interview before a sex scene. Go to 0:27. Alexy (though I hear Sammy) says that he's definitely gay. "Definitely." The camera abruptly cuts to them both. Robert, on your right, says that he's straight. "I just..." Before he can continue, the gay one on the left smiles and rolls his eyes and says, "Yeah, right." Did you notice Alexy gently nudging his elbow against Robert? "Oh, come on, you're fucking guys, that's pretty gay," says the nudging elbow. "I just... I am straight," Robert declares. "I'm only gay for pay." (That gay-for-pay nonsense is dispelled in great detail in Chapter 8.)

This ten second interaction reveals grero. For Alexy, the gay guy, it's obvious: this so-called straight guy has sex with men, he's gay. What he does not understand is that Robert is actually different as he's masculine. Alexy is noticeably effeminate. But for Alexy, the whole gay effeminacy goes out the window: it's about sex only. For Robert, the overriding criterion is gender: he's masculine so even if he has sex with men, he cannot be the effeminate gay.

This is a conundrum. Science does tell us that gay men are indeed effeminate. But then how can a masculine man ever have sex with another man without violating science or calling into question his masculinity? A gay commenter of the video offers a lucid explanation:

Quote from: panther1814
Robert Long is bi. He likes fucking chicks and fucking guys. He knows he enjoys fucking a guy's ass. That's why the other guy said "Yeah right" when he said he is straight.

I had guys like this before and they love to fuck and get sucked off by a guy. Not every guy that is so called gay for pay likes to kiss but man... they LOVE to fuck and get sucked off by a guy. Gay for pay is bullshit.

Grero solves the conflation of same-sex sex with effeminacy. While most gay men are indeed effeminate (Chapter 3), most men historically had sex with other men (Chapter 1) and even in our repressed culture most men harbor same-sex attractions (Chapter 4). This conflation of same-sex sex with effeminacy is merely a historical anomaly brought about with the focus on the procreative drive of sexuality (Chapter 10).

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / 0000: We're Back
« on: February 06, 2013, 06:27:18 PM »
Eighty years ago, there still existed in Germany a small group who believed that culture was responsible for the lack of sexuality between men and also rejected for themselves the minority status and effeminacy of gay culture. They called their magazine Der Eigene. Their beliefs and history are outlined in Chapter 12 so I will not write a summary here. But it's good to know that others like us existed who saw through the nonsense that is culture.

Or maybe it's not. I find it a bit intimidating that no one has successfully tackled this issue, and those that have tried have all failed. Also, there are no current groups of any note in this field. Why won't we share the fate of those that have come before us?

Success and failure is a matter of perspective. We cannot quickly overturn the two millennia of religious influence that has caused today's masculine-asphyxiated culture. Even in Western Europe where religion has been on the decline, there isn't any higher rate of same-sex sex or any genuinely masculine-oriented subculture. And while Grero is a better approach that may change the minds of some, most men will not change. It's like attempting to make everyone in the West eat sushi and wear top hats. We could talk health benefits, practicality, and other advantages but most will simply do as they are accustomed. Old habits like exclusive heterosexuality die hard, over many generations.

Therefore, expecting the 90% Roman figures in our lifetime (or even a majority) is a sure way to fail before even starting. However, small local groups of greros are feasible in short time. Those numbers are already on our side. In my experience, men who call themselves bisexual are generally masculine and if they read Grero, they would agree with the general conclusion. Looking at American figures, that's already about a million men (or ~1% of the population). Large metropolitan areas like Houston, Boston, or Portland then have thousands of men who are sympathetic and hungering for the grero message. The Internet can jumpstart this process.

The greatest gains though will be made in the population that is unwed (quite literally) to the idea of exclusive heterosexuality or masculinity that is defined by the exclusive attraction to the non-masculine. Would a guy in high school really want to spend hours holding in his farts on a boring date were it not for the cultural shame that same-sex attraction currently entails? Of course not: with another guy, you need not be bored out of your mind to get laid or for companionship. My hope is that Grero gives the confidence to those first few brave men to start the ball rolling. It's quite exciting to think of the possibilities. What would I have done in high school if I had this book? Scary to be sure but it helps that we have the tool that explains that same-sex attraction is masculine and exactly how gay has nothing to do with it. That's what was missing before. (Full disclosure: I'm still in my twenties but my point is that the opportunity to spread grero is highest when surrounded by lots of men, ie. high school and college. The workplace is not the best place for such ideas.)

In any case, we're back, taking the first steps of this long journey.

Der Eigene (Blog + Video) / Der Eigene Rules
« on: February 03, 2013, 06:39:43 PM »
  • Think of this board as a blog. I post, you reply.
  • Grero the book (or audiobook) is highly recommended reading as the blog will reference grero concepts.
  • This is blog runs on forum software so it's not in order. To sort from descending order, press subject twice, see attachment.

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