Topics

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/threads/427383-Are-ONLY-women-fluid-with-their-sexuality?p=9646056&viewfull=1#post9646056

I wrote a free book specifically on the sexual fluidity of males. In ancient Greece and Rome (but elsewhere too), men had sex with other men. Not 3% of men, not 5%, but a much larger number. They weren't merely tolerant of the few people who were same-sex oriented but the culture itself was oriented in that manner. No polls are available, but we know that of the first twenty Roman emperors, eighteen (or 90%) were reported to have had sex with other men. Other cultures around the world reported similar experiences between men. So what happened that 95% of men would say they're exclusively heterosexual now? Christianity. Same-sex was forbidden starting in the 300's and almost everyone is raised to feel that same-sex sex is gross or for just effeminate men.

Think of how uncomfortable most men are wearing speedos at least here in America. Well, in Europe when I was growing up, everyone was wearing them so no big deal. Sexuality is just like speedos: It's just social pressure and expectations. Innate sexual orientation, my ass.

Right, so we can all just turn straight by force of will?

Not necessarily.

My book is mostly about how most straight men cannot have been born straight. This has to be the case if we see that in the ancient world, most men it would appear had no(ne of our*) qualms about same-sex sex. Genes/hormones/whatever do not change in a few centuries. Culture can and did. That culture "makes" people straight does not mean that straight men can by force of will change their sexual habits. It does mean that for "straight" men who are already open-minded or curious, informing them that they're not really born straight could perhaps lead to a greater incidence same-sex sex.

Where does that leave the gays or homosexuality? Well, the problem is that there is no one thing called homosexuality. If you just browse the table of contents of Homosexualities by Stephen O. Murray, you'll see that there have been multiple types of homosexualities, plural. In some cultures, you had relationships between men of same rank or males of a different, both masculine though. In North America, you had berdaches who were feminine men used like women; the top in this relationship wasn't considered different from other males. Under the modern nomenclature, all of these people would be considered "homosexual" now. So... can some of these people change? Well, maybe.

I've never understood how some gay men can have sex with dozens or hundreds of men of varying quality, yet if a vagina is attached, "Eww, no thanks." Really, that's the deal breaker? A lot of gay men are effeminate and end up with other effeminate gay men... but if there's a vagina attached, "Eww, no thanks." Those in stable relationships (gay and straight): would you ditch your partner if they magically sprouted genitalia contrary to their biological sex all the sudden? So how much of homosexual exclusivity is due to the hetero-majority's bigotry that segregates gays, for example?

*There were sexual taboos in Rome. A freeman being penetrated was looked down upon, although no doubt many did it.

Numbers problem:

[Claims of situational homosexuality from above article:]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-kort-phd/why-some-straight-men-are-romantically-or-sexually-attracted-to-other-men_b_3670740.html

The following scenario happens many times: A man comes into my office, referred by his own therapist and clutching coming-out literature that the therapist has given him. He explains that his therapist has tried, unsuccessfully, to help him come out as gay or bisexual, but even though he's had sex with other men or gone to gay porn websites, he insists that he isn't gay. He says that he isn't homophobic either; if it turns out that he is indeed gay or bisexual, he'll accept it and move on with his life, but the label just doesn't feel right to him.

When I write about straight men who are attracted to or having sex with other men, I receive numerous negative responses, mostly from gay men who have lived in the closet, convincing themselves that they were straight, and may have even had relationships or marriages with women. "You are keeping these men closeted and harming them!" they shout at me. But what these gay men don't realize is that I am not talking about men like them. These gay men were suppressing an identity: a sexual and romantic identity of being gay. These are not the men I am addressing here.

Claims of situational homosexuality from above article:

Seeking intensely arousing but personally shameful experiences (e.g., penetration by a dildo, bondage): These are heterosexual men who are strongly interested in various sexual experiences that many people might label "homosexual." To avoid being identified in this way by women, they seek out men, whom they perceive as nonjudgmental.

First sexual experience: Sometimes heterosexual males experiment with other males sexually, usually in adolescence and/or young adulthood (up to age 25), for the experience or to satisfy curiosity.

Availability/opportunity: These straight men have high sex drives and are sexually aroused easily. They connect with men for physical sexual release, which can be quick and easy and allows them avoid having to emotionally engage.

Sexual addiction: "Gay" behavior can be the result of sexual addiction. But even a "cured" sex addict may still feel attracted to men, as do celibate gay priests.

Narcissism: These are straight men who are self-absorbed and have a constant need for attention and acceptance; they use sexuality with men to be worshipped and adored.

Exhibitionism: These straight men enjoy being looked at by both men and women as long as they are being admired for their bodies. Many are body builders and muscular and enjoy the homoerotic attention of gay men and might even flirt with gay men to encourage more admiration.

http://www.straightguise.com/

Straight Guise is about straight men who have sex with men (SMSM) who question their sexual orientation and are not gay. It is about the many reasons men engage in sexual contact with other men that are not about a homosexual identity.

Straight men cannot become gay and gay men cannot become straight. Gay men are not gay due to complicated childhood experiences such as sexual abuse or problematic parenting. Science is increasingly pointing to the evidence that gay men are born that way.

There is a significant difference between sexual identity, sexual behavior and sexual fantasy and Straight Guise helps teach what these are. 

Post from gaybros:

Bros, I stumbled on this & I'm digging it so much that I wanna share it before I even finish it. I think you will, too. (self.gaybros)

http://grero.com/ <-- in case the link doesn't work.

From my own experiences and the experiences I know about from other guys (gay, straight, bi, etc.) I've always had a nagging feeling that male sexuality was much more fluid than our current dichotomy of straight vs. gay. That's given, considering the Kinsey scale, but even among us gay guys, we have yet another spectrum that ranges from queens to bros and everything in between. I've always believed that each of our individual personalities are equally deserving of respect, and that's one of the common traits of this particularly community I enjoy. Despite some negative publicity, I've found guys on this subreddit to be mostly the type that acknowledges their own similarities, not trying to crown themselves as the elite of the LGBT community, but instead celebrating our own common interests as equally valuable to any aspect of our community. Most of you guys seem to truly enjoy the bond of other bros, but I think you'd quickly kick a bully's ass for messing with a queen or trans kid, or anyone else in our larger community. Having said that, we even have straight guys who enjoy coming here, which makes sense because many of us have a lot of straight guy friends. And as we gain more acceptance in society, it's kind of an honor to see that we do get a lot of respect from straight men - I can't count the times in recent months I've heard a straight guy say "It's really an ego boost for a gay guy to hit on me, even if I'm not able to reciprocate the attraction." I've always noticed a certain affection among men, regardless of sexuality or where they fall in the gender spectrum. From boys who curiously examine each others' bodies to teen guys who constantly joke and share sexual innuendo, and then after coming out and being shocked by the amount of married men or guys with gf's who enjoyed close relationships with me - sometimes sexual and sometimes not, but always a bond. Reading this page has been a real confirmation of the things I've noticed growing and learning as I have - being a guy who had to severely hide his orientation, but found incredible acceptance from my mostly straight guy friends once I did come out at 27.

I'm only about half done, but I think the article is really hitting on some true points that our culture would love to hide. As men, even men who are more sexually attracted to women, I think the bond between us has been sacrificed by a patriarchal, homophobic culture. I can only imagine a world where that bond, sexual or not, isn't shamed but celebrated. And where young adult men who experiment and learn about themselves and their own relationships to that bond and how their natural attractions work can do so without fear of being condemned, I can't help but think so many issues we face as society such as high divorce rates and fatherless kids, LGBT teen suicide, and bullying - how dramatically would we find ourselves better resolving those issues. I hope you get the time to read this article, and I hope there's some good discussion about it. I think there's an element of truth to it, and that men in our culture are being shamed into repressing too much of what comes natural to us. Straight, bi, gay, all these labels are so inadequate when it comes to human emotion, attraction, and mostly - love. And if this has been posted before, forgive me, as well as for the long-winded introduction. I'm just really enjoying the read.

There actually had been a previous though less receptive thread on gaybros: http://www.reddit.com/r/gaybros/comments/1essx9/some_essential_gaybros_reading_aka_why_being_gay/

[However, I find that much of your rhetoric is very unprofessional and makes your work appear less credible and extremely biased. Noone has to like any one political leaders in any country, however the language used to describe dislike in certain U.S. presidents is really immature. "The crackhead currently in office..." and other uncouth remarks about Clinton and gay men, et. al really throws intellectual readers off completely.]

Three Stooges: http://grero.com/#_Toc347564564

The message posted on facebook:

Hi. I read your entire free book online and generally agree with your historical research on men in early times and their sexual behaviour. I agree that heterosexuality is a social construct pressed upon many Westerners and needs to die down.
However, I find that much of your rhetoric is very unprofessional and makes your work appear less credible and extremely biased. Noone has to like any one political leaders in any country, however the language used to describe dislike in certain U.S. presidents is really immature. "The crackhead currently in office..." and other uncouth remarks about Clinton and gay men, et. al really throws intellectual readers off completely. I discovered your request for people to take a look at your site on an internet forum for lesbians and bisexuals.

Fun fact: I wear that same hat in my videos.

Introducing: the sounds of an armadillo fleeing during my walk in the woods and the Dad Voice.

I tried posting interesting grero and non-grero links here, but it didn't really fit. So... from now on, I'll be posting them on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/whatisgrero

Feel free to post links there as well.




Bonus! To spread grero, I also use this account to comment on sites that use Facebook comments so you'll be getting that all for free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_people

what would you say is the central thesis of your Grero book. Are you saying we are all as humans inherently bisexual? And that the repression of bisexuality in our modern civilization is leading to a slew of problems that could be resolved if we got rid of the idea of completely heterosexual humans and separating masculinity from sexual orientation?

As a straight male (I know you disagree with this term but I am most closely identified to liking women, although i suppose i could have sex with a man if i really wanted to, although i dont which is probably just societal conditioning.) But I don't understand why straight boys growing up tease each other about being gay, as an insult. Are they all just insecure that they are not 100% heterosexual and that that conflicts with what society tells them they should be? I've always wondered about that.

Thanks and keep up the good work. As a straight male i hate homophobia (even though i admit i am a little bit homophobic) and would like to see social progress in terms of how we define sexuality.

Furthermore, how is wanting to have anal sex with a woman any different from wanting to have anal sex with a man? Straight porn is nowadays more and more focusing on anal sex. I like the idea of anal sex with a woman and find it very sexy. Doesn't anal sex with a man seem like the same thing to some degree? I've always wondered why gay men wouldn't want to have anal sex with a woman. They have better asses anyway! From my perspective, I don't have much luck with women and fell very isolated sometimes so i resort to porn and i have become a porn addict. Straight/lesbian porn doesnt do much for me anymore so i look at gay porn. i dont like penis and am disgusted whenever i see it but i dont mind watching anal sex because i figure "an ass is an ass" and if i was really really horny and desperate and wanted to have sex i wouldn't be opposed to sticking my dick in a guy's ass. Partly when i get desperate it turns me on to know that gay men are much easier to have sex with than women. Does that make me somewhat bisexual? I don't think it would, it is mostly out of desperation and extreme hornyness. For example, i would fuck my bed if it had a hole in it if you get my meaning. I'm just wondering how wanting to fuck a women anal is any different from wanting to do the dame with a man. keep in mind that i also love vagina.

I would like to get a gay man's perspective, but especially you because you are masculine and maybe can get a better idea of where i am coming from.

Question from: http://grero.com/forum/index.php?topic=92.0

How do you define 'masculine'?

It is important because you reference this concept excessively (e.g. "masculine likes masculine"), but you don't say (to my knowledge) what you mean exactly.

Please don't just say it's something you know/notice about others (I remember you gave a response like this in one of your videos), but rather give a detailed description/definition. A definition that can be used to determine if certain person or activity is masculine or not -- by your standard, of course.

Grero in a meme: http://www.reddit.com/comments/1gbcdj/masculine_curious_youre_not_alone_most_men_have_a/cbf9pmf ;-)

I stumbled upon your book, and found it interesting, as a not-seeing-much-sense-in-calling-himself-gay man.

One of the reasons is, I can totally see myself loving a woman, for example, though I am not really keen on the "having sex" part. Also, I don't really like the gay community. At all. That being said, I'm not a "masculine man who loves masculine man" either, not in the exact sense. I cook. I'm awesome at baking cookies. I'm not good at football (soccer, that is) or anything, I feel no joy in indulging in any kind of activity that involves football, be it playing it, watching it, or anything else (I kick a good deal of ass in foosball, though). In short, I don't display what is called "gender-conforming behaviour". However, I suppose I am not effeminate either. The friends I express my love of men to are surprised, saying that they wouldn't expect me to be gay. I don't bother to explain I don't think I am gay, because, you know, controversial stuff.

Now, that being my position, your book kind of confused me. I'm pretty sure I can't call myself grero, because I don't really fit in the definition.

With me, the way out was far more simpler, but by no rights do I claim it is more accurate. Tastes in relationship is like tastes in food. Some like vegetables. Some like meat. Some carnivores may love mushroom anyway, because it is more of a "meaty" vegetable. Yet some other carnivores may love themselves a dish of cabbage, for no apparent reason what so ever. Some might like tomatoes, but not that one particular tomato, because they actually like watery tomatoes, whereas this one isn't watery at all. We don't really look for reasons in tastes in food, beyond the aspects of it (being well-cooked, meaty, crunchy, whatnot)  We just love them. I see it the same with sexuality.

This is more of a shortcut I have taken, and not a general principle on esthetics I heed. My question to you is, why didn't you endorse the "someone can love anybody" approach, but took the route of coining in a new term which, the way I see it, allows just the same thing.

I hope my question isn't an absurd one, and thanks in advance for your time.

What do you think about this situation? I find that I can really respect an academic regardless of creed, perhaps even find myself thinking of enjoying activities with them but not kissing and certainly not sex, I find male gay sex to be kind of disgusting. Where do I fall? I mean, I find the female body to be much more intriguing and seductive but I find the male mind to be more homely, I am not disgusted by the male body, I give it respect in its strength and form, but male love is not something I feel attracted to. What the hell am I?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego-dystonic_sexual_orientation

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2010/flextuality-nobody-is-straight-sexuality-gay/

Ever wonder if you are straight, gay, bi, or something else? The Flexuality Test assesses your attitudes, feelings, experiences, and desires. Your answers will be automatically analyzed to generate a sexual profile, with reference to a dozen sexual types.

Subject: Illegal Seduction Technique? - this video is not safe for work

Hey brother,

Want to know the biggest secret women
are hiding about what turns them ON?

Eh, not really.

[Male Affection - A Photographic History Tour]

Male Affection - A Photographic History Tour: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/07/29/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/

As you make your way through the photos below, many of you will undoubtedly feel a keen sense of surprise â€" some of you may even recoil a bit as you think, “Holy smokes! That’s so gay!”

The poses, facial expressions, and body language of the men below will strike the modern viewer as very gay indeed. But it is crucial to understand that you cannot view these photographs through the prism of our modern culture and current conception of homosexuality. The term “homosexuality” was in fact not coined until 1869, and before that time, the strict dichotomy between “gay” and “straight” did not yet exist. Attraction to, and sexual activity with other men was thought of as something you did, not something you were. It was a behavior â€" accepted by some cultures and considered sinful by others.

But at the turn of the 20th century, the idea of homosexuality shifted from a practice to a lifestyle and an identity. You did not have temptations towards a certain sin, you were a homosexual person. Thinking of men as either “homosexual” or “heterosexual” became common. And this new category of identity was at the same time pathologized â€" decried by psychiatrists as a mental illness, by ministers as a perversion, and by politicians as something to be legislated against. As this new conception of homosexuality as a stigmatized and onerous identifier took root in American culture, men began to be much more careful to not send messages to other men, and to women, that they were gay. And this is the reason why, it is theorized, men have become less comfortable with showing affection towards each other over the last century. At the same time, it also may explain why in countries with a more conservative, religious culture, such as in Africa or the Middle East, where men do engage in homosexual acts, but still consider homosexuality the “crime that cannot be spoken,” it remains common for men to be affectionate with one another and comfortable with things like holding hands as they walk.

Whether the men below were gay in the way our current culture understands that idea, or in the way that they themselves understood it, is unknowable. What we do know is that the men would not have thought their poses and body language had anything at all to do with that question. What you see in the photographs was common, not rare; the photos are not about sexuality, but intimacy.

Foucalt's quote from footnote 199: http://grero.com/#_ftn199

We must not forget that that the psychological, psychiatric, medical category of homosexuality was constituted from the moment it was characterized â€" Westphal's famous article of 1870 on "contrary sexual sensations" can stand as its date of birth â€" less by a type of sexual relations than by a certain quality of sexual sensibility, a certain way of inverting the masculine and the feminine in oneself. Homosexuality appeared as one of the forms of sexuality when it was transposed from the practice of sodomy onto a kind of interior androgyny, a hermaphroditism of the soul. The sodomite had been a temporary aberration; the homosexual was now a species.

Global Psyche: A Hands-on Approach: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200711/global-psyche-hands-approach

Sudanese-American psychiatrist Louai Bilal experienced a moment of culture shock when he returned to Sudan after a seven-year absence. A male friend greeted him warmly and then linked pinky fingers with him as they walked down the street in Khartoum. "He was completely at ease with it, but I was frozen," Bilal remembers, explaining that he's internalized American taboos against same-sex affection for men.

Lingering handshakes, handholding, embraces, and sometimes kisses between heterosexual men are the norm in much of the Muslim world. In Senegal, men walk with arms draped around each other's shoulders. In Saudi Arabia, greetings between men are almost always extended with kisses on the cheek. In Afghanistan, men write love poems to friends, and Taliban fighters give one another flowers. In Egypt, a man will punctuate a conversation by putting his hand on a buddy's thighâ€"and then keep it there.

Bilal sees the roots of this behavior in gender segregation, a tradition in Islamic cultures. "As boys, we grow up together," says Bilal, who teaches clinical psychiatry at the University of California at San Francisco. "We're separated from girls at a very young age, so it becomes natural for boys to seek affection from other boys."

Public displays of affection between men also have deep historical roots in Muslim culture. "Islam brought unity and fraternity to the Arab world," says Osman Ali, a psychiatrist at Bellevue Hospital, in New York City. Touch is a very public declaration of membership in the Umma, or the community of Muslim believers.

In much of the Middle East and Africa, homosexuality is taboo and rarely acknowledged, so straight men feel free to show affection in part because no one will assume they're gay. Michael Luongo, the author of Gay Travels in the Muslim World, still has trouble reading the overtures of men he meets in the Middle East. He was particularly perplexed when a young man in Afghanistan wanted to hold hands and chat for hours, and then invited him home to spend the night. "If this was the West, everything he said and did would mean that he wanted to sleep with me," Luongo says. "But he was just happy to meet an American."

Holding Hands: http://www.stuffindianslike.com/2008/04/170-holding-hands.html

In many places throughout Asia, holding hands amongst men is considered a common demonstration of hetero friendship. While crossing chaotic streets or sauntering down the sidewalk chewing paan, Indian men show no shame in interlocking fingers and pressing palms.

In America, though, hand holding between male friends is strictly prohibited by heteronormative social mores. Locking feet in a bhangra circle, however, is completely acceptable and straight. Lifting weights together in sleeveless tees and making eye contact in the full body mirror at the gym while executing synchronized bicep curls is also allowed. But hand holding between close friends? No, that'd be totally gay.

If you are an Indian male visiting family in India, do not be alarmed if upon first meeting you after several years of absence your cousin Anirrudah immediately grabs your hand and holds it next to his thigh for a long period of time. Also do not be alarmed if he is several years older than you, pushing 30, living with his parents and still single. This is the Indian custom of saying, "How have you been, brother? I'm not allowed to touch girls in my family's presence so this is as good as it gets."

Showing Some Love: http://www.postbourgie.com/2010/08/19/showing-some-love/

There’s no excuse for the homophobia that exists in many parts of both the developed and the developing world, but it really does seem like the US is unique in its inability to tolerate any of display of affection between men that goes beyond a handshake or a thump on the back. We even have words for it: “bro-hugs”, and the like, in order do distinguish it from what might be deemed unmanly displays.

Sex vs. emotions: http://www.glas.org/ahbab/Articles/arabia1.html

Many Arab men make a distinction between sex and emotional attachment. Bruce Dunne, author of an article titled Power and Sexuality in the Middle East, believes that sexual relations in the Middle East are about power. He writes: "Sexual relations in Middle Eastern societies have historically articulated social hierarchies, that is, dominant and subordinate social positions: adult men on top; women, boys and slaves below…Both dominant/subordinate and heterosexual/homosexual categorizations are structures of power."

Having pure, raw sex with another man and being the active partner doesn’t make a man gay. This notion of same-sex is also true in the West. It differs, however, with regard the application.

"Since the concept of same-sex relations does not exist in the Arab world, being ‘Gay’ is still considered to be a sexual behavior," says Outreach Director of the Gay and Lesbian Arab Society, Ramzi Zakharia, in an e-mail interview. But according to Western definition, "that limits it to 'homosexual' behavior, which does not mean that the person is Gay. Just because you sleep with a member of the same sex does not mean you are Gay... it just means that you are engaging in homosexual activity. Once a relationship develops beyond sex (i.e: love) this is when the term gay applies," adds akharia.

He believes that gays in the Arab world, unlike those in Western societies, "limit their activities to sex and rarely explore feelings beyond that," experience.

Eroticism Among Kabul’s Warriors: http://gaycitynews.com/gcn_318/eroticismamong.html

To the best of my knowledge, no gay Westerner had infiltrated gay Afghan life. I decided I would be the one to do this. But every Afghan American I knew was worried about the prospect of my traveling to their country on such a mission, especially the members of the Afghan-American Peace Corps, formed by members of the Afghan Diaspora living in New York who wanted to aid their homeland in the wake of 9/11. As I planned my trip in consultation with AAPC members, they backed out of their mission to bring cows they would purchase in Pakistan to widows in rural Afghan regions for safety reasons. In the end somewhat reluctantly I traveled alone, relying on contacts given me by friends.

My fears, and those of my Afghan American friends, proved unfounded. By the fall of 2003, Kabul was relatively safe. I often wandered the streets alone, even after nightfall. Most Kabulites were happy to meet foreigners, especially Americans. The city was rapidly rebuilding with new shops sprouting next to piles of rubble. There was even a tourist district along Chicken Street where souvenir and rug vendors sought the attention of soldiers, foreign workers, diplomats, and the odd backpacker.

To be sure, all of this vitality was mixed with children begging, legless mine victims on crutches, and women who remained true to the tradition of wearing burqas. But, Kabul was undoubtedly undergoing a revolution of investment and modernization, post-Taliban.

I also found that homosexuality easily came up in conversation, even with some government officials. An Afghan national who worked in a Western embassy but only wanted to be identified by his first name, Mohammed, gave me historical background on the topic. Certain Afghan tribes, he explained, especially the Uzbeks and Pashtuns, were known for male sexual behavior. The city with the greatest reputation for active homosexuality was Kandahar, the headquarters of the Taliban. According to Mohammed, male couples “were even holding wedding ceremonies after the Taliban arrived.” The Taliban tried to control it, he explained, but “it was so common in Kandahar, they were able to embrace it.”

Apparently, traditions of homoerotic behavior have come down from ancient times in Afghanistan. These customs carry on to this day, according to Mohammed, at rural weddings where dancer-boys entertain male crowds, wearing anklets that make music as they move. Sometimes, he explained, they “dress him like a woman.” Many of the boys are available for sex.

“It has two partsâ€"â€"the dancing part and the sexual part,” Mohammed said. “The sexual part, no one will confess.”

These relationships seem to be widely known, even acknowledged implicitly, but they are far less often discussed openly and they are illegal.

“The sexual part, it’s a problem,” Mohammed said. “The man and the boy can go to jail.”

I wanted to go to Kandahar because its homosexual reputation seemed most pronounced, and Mohammed’s stories about the city involved relationships between grown men, rather than a man with a youth, as seemed more common elsewhere.

Kandahar’s reputation for homosexuality also came up in discussions with some young men I photographed in Kabul’s Babur Gardens pool. The comfort Afghan men have with their bodies surprised me. Some willingly posed semi-nude in front of a foreigner’s camera. The fall of the Taliban appears to have unleashed a cult of working out. Some of these men proudly asked me to photograph them at their pools, saunas, and gyms. Several of the gyms sported pictures of Arnold Schwarzenegger, still more famous there for his muscles than his politics. At the pool, when I questioned the swimmers through my translator about the Taliban’s notions about body image, several made a joke of the question, claiming that the old regime was made up of gay menâ€"â€"Kandahar “playboys” as they called themâ€"â€"who loved to see naked men.

Yet, even as Afghan men joked about the Taliban being gay, they did not seem terribly put off by the subject of homosexuality. In front of a mosque, I came across a group of construction workers on break, one in traditional clothing, which made for an ideal picture. His friends joined in as I photographed and one very handsome worker essentially took over the shoot. In any Western country, he’d have been a model.

Perhaps 20 men in all gathered and quickly realized I was gay, based on my interest in the handsomest man. It proved to be no problem at all; some of the older men pushed us together, asking, “You like homosex?” They were so open, I was the one who was shocked.

As I spoke to Mohammed about my hopes to visit Kandahar, he warned me that a foreigner faced the risk of assault for prying into local life there. Add to that the choice between the $900 cost of the 30-minute flight from Kabulâ€"â€"more than my freelance budget allowedâ€"â€"or a bus ride along a road where workers were killed just before my visit, and I reluctantly decided to forgo the trip.

My most interesting peek into gay life happened much the way that it would in the West. On the street, a handsome young man held my stare, throwing glances back as he passed. He was a 21-year-old English teacher who I will call Munir, to protect his privacy.

Half an hour flew by as we conversed, with men in uniform and women in burqas parading by. Munir wore a neat, though dusty black suit. In spite of its post-war ruin, Kabul is a cosmopolitan city and Munir tried hard to maintain decorum, even a sense of style.

Sex had really not been on my mind when I embarked for Afghanistan, but I was attracted to Munir. His response to my interest struck me as very sophisticated.

“I knew what you wanted when you told me I was attractive. I am from Kabul, I know these things,” he said, before adding that at 35 I was too old for him, Afghanistan being a society where few men live through their 40s. He suggested that I meet his 26-year-old friend, who I’ll call Syed, who already had a 35-year-old boyfriend.

“This is Kabul,” Munir said in an urbane manner. “Anything can be arranged.”

I returned to my hotel, the Mustafa, full of journalists and odd characters, to prepare for a visit to Munir’s home. The owner Wais, an Afghan American from New Jersey now back in his homeland, knew I was investigating Kabul’s gay side, but I was not out to his staff. I told them simply that I was doing interviews. Abadullah, the protective assistant manager, always insisted on knowing my whereabouts and expressed fears I would run across Al-Qaeda insurgents. When it was time for me to head to Munir’s, Abadullah told me my trip was not a good idea, but then gave instructions to a cabdriver.

Abdullah’s warnings rang louder in my head the further the driver went. Munir said he was only five minutes from my hotel, but the ride seemed to last forever. We were slipping from the Kabul I recognized into places where electricity no longer worked. The crowded streets of Kabul gave way to suburbia, then patches of nothing interspersed with little low-rise communities. I called Munir on my rented mobile, but he sounded drunk, and I could hear people laughing in the background. He’d invited friends to meet me, which made me wary.

When we arrived, Munir was on the street with a few friends, including Syed, who was bearded and traditionally clothed. Munir led us up the street to what he called his “special room for men.” A red light shone from the house’s second floor window. Had I happened on a gay brothel?

There were eight men, most in their 20s and 30s, sprawled on cushions. Self consciously, I sat under a large window. Through a wall, I could hear women in the house, but I never saw them. I felt on display with so many men around me. Soon, more entered. If I were here to meet Syed, who were they?

The conversation was stilted, and perhaps they needed to be put at ease as much as I did. Munir at times translated as I asked about life under the Taliban. This broke the tension, and several men brought out photo albums.

The men who had gathered together were a masculine bunch. Munir’s brother, who I’ll call Abdul, was a military martial arts teacher, Syed an auto mechanic, and several were bodybuilders. Virtually all of them had fought against the Taliban. They proudly showed me photos from the army, including one showing Abdul parachuting out of a helicopter. Each man waited expectantly as they showed me pictures, searching intensely for my reaction. It was as if each wanted to prove his bravery, and with each photo, I felt as if I were being wooed. Courage against the Taliban seemed to be their erotic calling card.

They were also clearly interested in talking about sex. One young man asked about English slang words, and offered the tip that the Afghan word “milk” also means masturbation. He then talked about prostitutes, mentioning a Chinese restaurant that fronts for a brothel, clueing me in to the open secret that Kabul is rampant with prostitution, tailored to the needs of foreign workers.

This man was 20, married with children. I asked him how in a traditionally Islamic country he knew such things. He responded by challenging me to tell him about my wife or girlfriend.

Finally, the young man said, “When we meet a man who does not have a wife, and does not have a girlfriend, we call him a sissy. What is another word for that in English?” One of the men, I’ll call Ali, a brutally handsome man with wildly wavy hair, then put his arm around me and nudged closer. He played with the muscles on my arms, comparing them to his own, his other hand rubbing his crotch.

That was when the 20-year-old man simply blurted out, “Munir said you like to do homosexual things.”

I refused to answer. I felt vulnerable, even if the mood was jovial.

I asked once again how they could be open about such things in Afghanistan when it seemed so conservative, at least to outsiders. One young man chimed in, “Not under the Taliban, but Afghanistan is a democracy now, we can talk about anything we want.”

I couldn’t figure out where all this talking was leading, and worried that maybe my curiosity, a travel writer’s virtue, had finally gotten the best of me. We danced around topics until I understood that nobody meant me any harm. Several men insisted I sleep there, Munir’s brother being the most persistent, letting me know how happy he would be if I lay beside him.

“If you stay here, you are sure to have a ball,” he said.

Still, I decided I should go. Munir and Abdul drove me back into town. As we proceeded through the darkness, Abdul said his brother was an Al-Qaeda member. Afghans commonly say this as a joke, but alone with the two men, I worried until central Kabul came into view.

Two days later, confident that my doubts during my first visit were merely the jitters, I returned to Munir’s house to a smaller gatheringâ€"â€"just him, his brother Abdul, Ali, Syed, and a fifth man. The men had planned a massage party, with Ali and Abdul vying for me. Munir continually dared me to kiss his brother, but each time Abdul pulled away at the last minute, laughing. To make me look Afghan, they put a wrap on my head and we all danced. They wanted us to dance with their guns, but in spite of what interesting photos that would have produced, I declined.

The neighborhood was full of parties that day, so we wandered music-filled streets, and I was welcomed by several families they introduced me to. As the night progressed, I was comfortable enough to stay over, and Ali and I slept in each other’s arms, after caressing each other for hours.

I don’t think I’ll forget those nights in Munir’s house, but it provided I think only a hint at what homosocial and homosexual behavior means in Afghanistan. Afghan men have lived through hardship, killed for their country to free it from the Taliban, and treat guns like fashion accessories, but strict Islamic rule means they’ve probably never seen a woman naked. Homosexual behavior might simply be a replacement for physical intimacy they can not get otherwise in their livesâ€"â€"a workaround.

Still, I seemed to have encountered a society that accepts affection between men as a wonderful thing. I am eager for my return to the country, and my chance to experience Kandahar too. I can only wonder for now what I’ll find.